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Wildwood
yes, that's his opinion.

but as 'seb sorsa' said on another thread :

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Look at Burnley, how many of us here at the start of the season would've taken Michael Duff, Scott Arfield, Dean Marney or even Ings and Vokes above what we have here?


and take a look at forest and derby; their players are no better than ours. heck, derby were pissing around in middle table until they got rid of clough....had they kept clough, could they have used the argument - 'we're just a mid-table team with mid-table players and performances'?

good/bad managers make a difference.
Disclaimer: unless stated otherwise, it's meant in jest 
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leeds darn sarf
What Eddie Gray is politely saying is that you can't polish a turd.
   [leeds_united] 
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Wildwood
so, kenny, byram, warnock, zaliukas, wooten, austin, kebe, stewart, ross mac, mowatt and even brown are all 'turds' in eddie's eyes?

i suggest he take a look at the 'turds' in derby's squad, burnley's squad or that of forest.

and since when has eddie gray been the font of all knowledge? that's the third time someone has quoted him as an argument.
let's ignore the arguments people present, and start quoting eddie...[smiley-score001]
Disclaimer: unless stated otherwise, it's meant in jest 
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Pistol White
Van are you still banging on about how amazing our players would be playing if you were in charge
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Wildwood
here's another one addressing the point...[rofl]
Disclaimer: unless stated otherwise, it's meant in jest 
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Pistol White
You could turn Michael Brown into Lionel Messi with appropriate coaching.
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Wildwood
don't need to pistol..in the games he's actually played, he's probably been our best player!

and you're avoiding the point again...[giggle]
Disclaimer: unless stated otherwise, it's meant in jest 
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Skygod
Pistol White wrote:
You could turn Michael Brown into Lionel Messi with appropriate coaching.


[rofl]

What's the name of the coach? Wallace Arnold?


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LeedsPremChamps2020
If it wasn't valentines day, and my proposed research wouldn't end up with me being single, I would go find a few facts about the Derby and Forest teams that are being used as a measuring stick here and ask a few questions.
How many times have the complete squad at these teams changed managers over the last 2 years?
How many of these teams have had the disruption behind the scenes (and indeed in plain view) that DO have an impact, players are human after all!
Have these, recognised mid table teams (perennial playoff merchants?), had a spine of the team that has been added to over previous season to create a stronger foundation with minimal disruption or a string of managers that swap and change priorities of signings?
Some of these teams have had takeovers, how many have had 2 in a short amount of time after a meglomaniac in charge for a decade? Did the other teams performance drop during the uncertainty of ownership change?


There are literally hundreds of questions that make each situation unique which is where a club by club comparison in nonsense!
Not saying we've been through the most, but we've certainly been through 'unique' circumstances and anyone who doesn't look at the situation as a whole, isn't really looking at the club with objectivity, more just fulfilling their own agenda.

This team, weighed on each area of the pitch, is mid table who could flirt with play off status IMO. We have some quality, but our depth of that quality and the areas that are covered, are too patchwork for a squad that could succeed. BM hasn't had a full season here, he hasn't been in a position where he has signed players he has had negotiations with. He is effectively the same as every other manager since our fall from grace BUT he is saying the right things (did Warnock?) and he is letting us know what shape OUR club is in, name another who has at least tried that (SG may have if he didn't feel he was the buffer between Bates and the fans and club he loves). Too many people judge without taking into account every angle they can think of IMO
BM best in the world? No, he isn't managing the elite like Barca's.
BM the best in the UK? Probably not, again, he would be somewhere higher in the prem league.
BM the best in the champ? He isn't top of the league so probably not.
BM the best fit for Leeds? I think so, honest approach which, after 10 years of cloak and dagger, is exactly what the fans need! Some games may seem to be tactically incorrect at the beginning but, as per most of our second halves, the bloke DOES see this and TRIES to change things around to impact the game.
What BM brings right now is something us fans need and have needed for a long time, someone who, when we hear an interview, we as a majority trust what he is saying.

I'm expecting the response of "he a manager of a football team and this is a results business" which is true, but LUFC is again in a transitional period and BM's care and attention to US is making more of a difference than anything else could right now, if we were winning every week people would say we were papering over the cracks of ER. BM isn't papering anything, he's knocking it back to bare brick and re-plastering the whole place and at least he is being honest over how long and how much that would take.

Rant over,going back to getting the house ready for the return of the boss........
I should’ve just put 2020/21 damn it!
Championship Champions is close enough for me!


WE ARE BACK BABY!
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Seb_Sorsa
Appreciate the passion LPC and obviously it's your opinion which I respect but I just don't agree. The takeover Bates, GFH et al has absolutely nothing to do with the criticism's of McDermott which are mainly that our style of play hasn't improved on the pitch.
Bugger me we've seen enough teams in all divisions come through adversity. Didn't Eddie Howe (no I don't want him here either) have transfer embargos at Bournemouth, yet still managed to take players who had previously just escaped relegation to the League 2 title in the space of a year?
For all the problems BM's had none have been on the pitch, he hasn't had his best players sold from underneath him and he's been given a bit of cash to add to the squad. Compare that (I know you love comparisons) to Sean Dyche (Burnley finished level on points with us last season) who was allowed two freebies in (one released by Huddersfield, the other one relegated) and had his best player sold on the last day of the window...yet no money and freebies doesn't mean they spend every week hoofing it.

I'm not saying "well because Burnley are 2nd we should be too", but the constant excuses of the footballs carp because the players aren't good enough just don't hold any water. There are worse players for clubs in worse conditions than us playing better football and Noodles, Colgate Dave and the rest of those jokers aren't responsible for that failing. When BM was coaching in the summer bringing in Murphy and Wootton on a decent wedge, I doubt he had any idea that anything was wrong at boardroom level.

In....... I trust!
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Sir Rob Vegetable
  • I think good managers can walk in to teams who are underperforming, and get them performing again - week in and week out - getting the most out of them.
  • But I don't think good managers can get a team to "over perform" week in and week out consistently... 
i.e. I don't think Arsene Wenger could make the current group of Leeds players much better than they are, but i think he could increase the underperforming redscum team.



Brian McDermott didn't inherit a group of players who were 'underperforming' in the classic sense - no, he inherited a group of players who were doing exactly as you'd expect from a group with massive gaps in the squad - a surplus of other types - and overall a complete lack of meshing and playing style.


In the same way I think you have two types of players in a team:
  1. Those who shut out the opposition, and are essential to "not losing" your games
  2. Those who open up the opposition, and are essential to "help you win" games


Warnock built a team of players in the first category, with only McCormack and Byram in the second group.  You do not succeed by only having hardworking defensive players - you need match winners.



All said and done, I think Brian has got the team playing "to it's ability" - if we want more from this squad then we need more match winners, and the only way to do that is to recycle large parts of the squad which EITHER takes time OR significant amounts of money.... Brian (under GFH) thought he had the former, but under Cellino he may have the latter... let's see....

1 x top class striker, 1 x 'footballing' centre midfielder in the same style as Murphy, 1 x winger to rotate with Stewart and Kebe and i think we'd be sorted.
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Wildwood
so, upon what basis have you assumed that players are currently performing to their ability? or that the players bmac inherited were not underperforming?
Disclaimer: unless stated otherwise, it's meant in jest 
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john charles 2
Answer is no basis, just an opinion on a nice guy who he likes.
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Sir Rob Vegetable
Wildwood wrote:
so, upon what basis have you assumed that players are currently performing to their ability? or that the players bmac inherited were not underperforming?



Yeah.... for me the sum of the parts = where we are in the league. I don't think the GROUP are capable of much more really, although we'd see much more of certain individuals if they had better team mates around them, e.g. Murphy.


I think 7 or 8 of the current first team are good enough to be in a genuine promotion challenging team - but we need the 3 or 4 special players who we've not yet signed.

Kenny is definitely 'excellent' at this level, although there's something that makes me feel his heart isn't in the game any more - he seems far too chilled about everything, always with a grin on his face- i never see him really bolllock anyone for mistakes unless the criticise him first.  I'd like to get someone more long term in GK for next season - that's not saying Kenny isn't good cause he - one of the best keepers in the division really, but still..... horses for courses and all that.


Our back four is really good in my opinion.... Warnock, Byram and two of Pearce, Lees, Zaliukas and Wootton. It wouldn't survive well in the Prem, but at this level - if they were suitably protected by midfield then i think they're as good as any back 4 really.

Ross is probably one of the top 5 players in this league, but needs a first choice partner - Matt Smith is plan B, Hunt is plan C... but plan A is still out there in the transfer market.

Cameron Stewart and Kebe can do it at this level, although i worry that they both seem to play 90 mins every game these days - and wingers tend to need competition and rotation. Desperately need another first team winger in the squad to keep things fresh and consistent from the wing positions.

I like Murphy - much more than others do, but I really don't think Austin and Murphy compliment each other really... some games yes, but others no.... Austin is definitely 'an athlete' but he's not that good technically in terms of one touch and quick feet... Murphy seems to be the opposite - he's pretty decent on the ball, but is getting dragged everywhere on the pitch keeping up with Austin... I think 2 x Murphys or 2 x Austins would be a better pairing.


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Wildwood
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Yeah.... for me the sum of the parts = where we are in the league. I don't think the GROUP are capable of much more really, although we'd see much more of certain individuals if they had better team mates around them, e.g. Murphy.


but the question remains: upon what basis have you assumed that 'the group isn't capable of much more'?


(sorry to keep asking the question, but i think this issue needs addressing because way too many people claim this without backing it up)
Disclaimer: unless stated otherwise, it's meant in jest 
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Pistol White
but the question remains: upon what basis have you assumed that 'the group isn't capable of much more'?

Because under the last 2 managers (or last 2.5 years), particularly Warnock, this group has been poor, very few good performances.  It is better this year but still lacks a few genuine quality players, especially in midfield.

I'll turn the question back over to you, on what basis have you assumed this group is capable of much better?  Where is your evidence that backs up this assertion?
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Wildwood
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Because under the last 2 managers (or last 2.5 years), particularly Warnock, this group has been poor, very few good performances.  It is better this year but still lacks a few genuine quality players, especially in midfield.


under warnock, we had warnock-esque performances...long ball, percentages football, a bit of work rate, fairly decent organisation...and a fairly decent all-round unit. for what warnock wanted them to do, the group did reasonably well...whether warnock's approach is successful anymore, would have paid off had he been backed last january or was in our long-term interests, is another matter.
but you can't judge if he was getting the most out of the players he had at his disposal because their instructions were limited to playing 'percentages', and did not exploit their other skills.

under bmac, we've still got the long ball, a lower work rate most of the time, fairly poor organisation most of the time and, imo, a worse all-round unit. but, unlike warnock, bmac is supposed to be a 'footballing' manager yet there are no real signs of this football on the pitch. and, in the same way as warnock, you can't judge if players are maximising their capabilities if they're restricted in what they're doing. where's our build up play? i.e. the first vertical ball into midfield? where's the movement between the lines from midfielders and strikers? why, when the keeper has the ball, do the centre halves never go wide to receive the ball (with full backs pushing up)? why, when our defenders are played a ball by one of our midfielders (or midfielders played the ball by forwards), do they only look forward, instead of simply turning and playing the ball back and keeping possession by making lateral passes? and the list goes on....

so, if players are not doing the basics of the game, people can't really bandy about assumptions about our players being incapable of doing better. the fact that professional players can actually play 'proper' football, has been proven time and time again by us being dominated by the likes of rochdale, sheff wednesday, barnsley, yeovil and just about every 'lesser' team we've played.

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I'll turn the question back over to you, on what basis have you assumed this group is capable of much better?  Where is your evidence that backs up this assertion?


following on from what i've written above, you can only judge whether or not players are capable of better performances if you actually fully exploit their skills. the bottom line is: you don't get to make it as a professional footballer if you can't do the basics exceptionally well, and you certainly don't get to play at the highest level. 

kenny, warnock, brown, wootten, zaliukas, kebe, varney and pearce (and even pugh and tongue) have all had experience at the top level; add to that an exceptional full back (byram), one of the best strikers in this league (ross mac), a fairly decent winger (stewart) and a very good midfielder for this league (austin), and you've certainly got the makings of a very good side. i even think murphy would perform better in a less chaotic system.

so what bmac is doing (and what warnock did) is like only driving a car in 3rd gear and 5th gear...



Disclaimer: unless stated otherwise, it's meant in jest 
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Sir Rob Vegetable
Wildwood wrote:
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Yeah.... for me the sum of the parts = where we are in the league. I don't think the GROUP are capable of much more really, although we'd see much more of certain individuals if they had better team mates around them, e.g. Murphy.


but the question remains: upon what basis have you assumed that 'the group isn't capable of much more'?


(sorry to keep asking the question, but i think this issue needs addressing because way too many people claim this without backing it up)



I think in fairness to me, i have explained as much as I can in terms of why i think what I do about the current players' ability...

If I were to drill down much further on rationale I think the conversation would get quite ethereal or philosophical!  

I suppose you reach a point where's purely opinion, I've looked at the squad we've got and I think the blend isn't quite right - too many of some, none of other types. Most of the imbalance was caused by Warnock.
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Wildwood
fair play, sir rob, but read what i posted to pistol white - if players aren't being asked to fully utilise their skills, how can people assume they're incapable of better...


Disclaimer: unless stated otherwise, it's meant in jest 
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Pistol White
Agree Sir Rob.  Wildwood, you rightly state that if you get to Championship level of pro football you have a very good amount of talent, what you don't mention though is that everyone you are playing against are also professional footballers, it's one thing producing skills and looking composed when the game is being played at a relative pedestrian pace, for example in Sunday League or Semi Pro level, in the Championship you get barely a second of time anywhere on the pitch, because every player is fast (relatively) and has a big engine, because of the pace of the game and the similar ability of your opponent it is possible for very talented footballers to look pretty poor when in the company of their peers.  If you put Michael Brown, Michael Tongue, Austin, Murphy in a Skrill Conference North Match they would all look like world beaters, but that means nothing in terms of their ability to perform in the Championship.
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Wildwood
sorry, pistol, but you've overlooked several key points.

i've already identified our players with top level and championship experience (which means they can play at this level). i've also identified our good championship-level players (ross mac, byram, austin, stewart)...they've all proven they can cope with the speed and demands of the championship and the skills, etc. of their peers - so i'd don't get how comparisons with sunday league, etc. are even relevant.

you've also ignored the fact that we've been outfootballed by lesser teams, with lesser players. and when you analyse those games, you see how the opposition is building up play, keeping possession, etc., using a certain system of play, while we're lumping it long and chasing around rather aimlessly. the managers of those teams were getting the most out of their players (by using all their skills), whereas bmac (and warnock before him) wasn't.

that's the key - getting the most our of your players. and bmac has failed miserably on this front because he's not even attempted to 'play football' (like other lesser teams have against us). and that's not down to the players; that's down to the manager.


Disclaimer: unless stated otherwise, it's meant in jest 
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Pistol White
I don't agree Wildwood.  You keep talking about teams we are better than or have better players than, it depends what you mean by better than, for example Neil Kilkenny is a very good footballer in terms of technique and passing and getting the ball down an playing, however he is very much lacking in physical attributes and games pass him by, he cant tackle, run and doesn't cover enough ground- he is immobile, Adam Clayton similar, good footballer but lacking physical attributes, Austin for example is the other way lacking in technical ability but has the physical attributes, who is the better player the powerful player or the technical player, Neil Warnock would say the powerful player and recruited that type of player, Green, Pearce, Peltier, old Brown, Tongue etc...

McDermott has got rid of Green, Varney, has brought in Mowatt, Murphy, Kebe, Stewart, he is trying to turn us from the functional power team with little technique (a Warnock team) to a better technical team that can play football, it wont happen overnight though.  He's maintained our league position whilst transitioning.   I really don't know what you expect of him.  You just assume we should be out footballing teams without any basis at all.
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BB
Pistol

That stats show we can pass the ball and retain possession. Earlier on in the season we were achieving 65% possession now it is around about 35%.

However, the possession we achieved early doors had no end product. We did not create any real chances despite having more of the ball. Players (Strikers/Midfielders) were too static and not making enough runs between the lines to receive the ball and provide options for the ball carrier.

When we hit the ball longer and into channels/up toward the target man our results improved UNTIL the other teams worked us out (Which they had done under Warnock too)

We now have 2 wingers so our aim should be to get the ball to them, on the floor and at the earliest opportunity so they can isolate their marker and run at them with pace.

It will be interesting to see what we do v Boro tomorrow. They will keep the ball on the deck and look to use their wide men. We need to try to do the same, even if we set up to counter attack.

Knocking a high ball up towards Ross is never going to work as Woody will lap this up. However, get Woody turned and he no longer has the pace he once enjoyed.





BB
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Wildwood
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You keep talking about teams we are better than or have better players than, it depends what you mean by better than


well, not really because, as i've already stated, all professional players (certainly those who player higher up...of which we've got plenty - as i've already pointed out) can do the basics - so why is bmac not asking them to build up play, keep possession. etc.? it requires tactical insight, a style of play and coaching ability, which bmac is sadly lacking (and he's signed 7 or 8 players, so he can't really complain about having to work with other people's players; if anything, warnock's players have carried the team).

and just look how sunderland's style of play has changed within such a short period - a few weeks ago people may have said they're incapable of doing it? and that's not the only example.

i remember watching one of david o'leary's first games in charge (a league cup game away to leicester), and the difference in tactical approach (compared to george graham) was amazing (even with george graham type players...which is an argument you're using now re. warnock)....pressing high up the pitch, composure on the ball, confidence in play - all down to the manager getting his players to play in a certain manner. and the same can be said for george graham when he arrived - you could see his approach (like it or not) immediately, with the players he had at his disposal.

what's bmac's approach? anyone?

i think people are making all kinds of excuses for bmac, without much to back it up.



Disclaimer: unless stated otherwise, it's meant in jest 
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Daffs
I think some just don't like Bmac and have to keep reminding everyone in every fckin post......WE GET YOUR MESSAGE!!!!!
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Wildwood
dude, why you throwing your toys outta pram?
Disclaimer: unless stated otherwise, it's meant in jest 
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Daffs
I ain't throwin no toys.
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Skygod
Wildwood wrote:
dude, why you throwing your toys outta pram?


[ferraritoys]


Coz I can [running-around-smiley-emoticon]
Post Whore & Best Newcomer - ULUFC Annual Awards 2013/14

Post Whore & Best Researcher - ULUFC Annual Awards 2014/15
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Wildwood
[giggle]
Disclaimer: unless stated otherwise, it's meant in jest 
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Pistol White
WW.  I can see there is no point continuing this debate so I'm out.  If we started to play like Barca it would be because of the weather rather than B Mac no doubt.
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Sir Rob Vegetable
Pistol White wrote:
I don't agree Wildwood.  You keep talking about teams we are better than or have better players than, it depends what you mean by better than, for example Neil Kilkenny is a very good footballer in terms of technique and passing and getting the ball down an playing, however he is very much lacking in physical attributes and games pass him by, he cant tackle, run and doesn't cover enough ground- he is immobile, Adam Clayton similar, good footballer but lacking physical attributes, Austin for example is the other way lacking in technical ability but has the physical attributes, who is the better player the powerful player or the technical player, Neil Warnock would say the powerful player and recruited that type of player, Green, Pearce, Peltier, old Brown, Tongue etc...

McDermott has got rid of Green, Varney, has brought in Mowatt, Murphy, Kebe, Stewart, he is trying to turn us from the functional power team with little technique (a Warnock team) to a better technical team that can play football, it wont happen overnight though.  He's maintained our league position whilst transitioning.   I really don't know what you expect of him.  You just assume we should be out footballing teams without any basis at all.



Spot on for me.... except the Clayton bit who i think is actually one of the best all round CMs in the league. Opinions and all that, but i think he's fecking awesome.

Your point is spot on though generally.... "power team" vs "technical team"... yes agree, and we're currently in transition between the two.

Beige Brian - I know where you're coming from too... i think you make a good point, the only explanation i can make is that we hit the ground running compared to other teams so made ourselves look better than we are early on... 


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